This is a question that we’ve asked of Margaret. Thankfully, due to a letter written by the author herself, we have a firm answer. I can’t tell you how long I participated in discussions and speculations on that particular topic. It’s truly wonderful to have a firm hand on that now. (*if you are just joining us, check out this topic for answers to that question. Knowledge of Love Pt 1 & Pt 2 -new comments always welcome.)
Therefore, to be fair, we should give equal time to Thornton. Though he understood and embraced his love for Margaret much earlier than she did, still the question remains. ”When did Thornton know?”
This question is not new but it has not been discussed nearly as often as Margaret’s. We know that the “revelation of love” comes down upon him like a tidal wave after he see’s Margaret, lying as “dead”. (in the book) He makes this amazingly romantic declaration, ‘Oh, my Margaret—my Margaret! no one can tell what you are to me! Dead—cold as you lie there, you are the only woman I ever loved! Oh, Margaret—Margaret!’ Ch22 ‘A blow and it’s Consequences’
For those of you who have not yet read the book, this will be a new revelation to you, since the movie omits this scene (much to my disappointment). It is a crucial moment in the progression of the story, turning the direction of the story dramatically for both Thornton and Margaret, from this moment on. For me, after I first read the book, I firmly believed the knowledge of the full depth of his love for her came upon him in that moment. Yet others; friends and fans that I admire, believe that he was aware of his love for her long before this moment.
To start off this discussion well, let’s dive right into one of the moments in the book that is most used in defending this position. In Ch26 ‘Mother and Son’, Gaskell takes us into the heart and mind of our leading man. It is in this scene that I firmly believe that my adoration for Thornton was sealed. His heartache is clearly seen and felt by every reader. Freshly crushed, bruised and understandably frustrated by the disastrous proposal just moments before. Along with his heartache, Thornton speaks of real physical pain. ‘He had positive bodily pain,—a violent headache and a throbbing intermittent pulse.’ [...] ‘He loved her, and would love her, and defy her, and this miserable bodily pain!’ Gaskell leaves little doubt as to just how deeply this event has effected Thornton. It is in this moment that she reveals the depths of Thornton’s heart. She describes in breathtaking detail the full measure of his heartache and longing. In this aftermath, he is at odds with himself. His mind openly chastises his heart for being foolish! “the absurd way he’d gone and done the very thing he had so often agreed with himself in thinking would be the most foolish thing in the world,” This very line is where the heart of this discussion seems to fall. For it is here that some find acknowledgement that Thornton knew full well of his love for Margaret and even considered marriage. That this line refers to Margaret, which then would strongly indicate that he had considered a proposal but had logically reasoned in his mind that it was a foolish act. Though my first impressions of this line come from a different angle, I openly acknowledge that this line of thought has merit and should be considered as a possibility. Yet still, I have not be completely convinced.
So let’s present another way of looking at this text. For me, as stated above, originally this line always represented a much different revelation into the heart and mind of Thornton. Gaskell, reveals to us in the first several chapters of the book, that Thornton, not unlike Margaret, gave little thought to marriage or even love. ‘I have never loved any woman before; my life was been too busy, my thoughts too much absorbed with other things.’ Ch24 ‘Misunderstandings Cleared Up’. His mind had been consumed with business and the raising of his family from poverty. His focus and driven to complete this task, this goal that he set out for himself in the days following his father’s death.
Thornton’s personal life and business life were completely intertwined. He approached life as he did business, making decisions based on observation and careful consideration. He created a system in his life where all decisions were made only after all sides of the issue were considered. Though I believe there is evidence that he took risks, these risks were calculated and reasoned. I approached the quote above from this understanding of his character. That the line was uttered from a principle he had long set for himself.
In this culture, society and tradition dictated that men of the middle class and higher needed to first establish themselves financially before considering taking on a wife. Being able to prove to her family that he was able to provide for her. Though we don’t know exactly when the first elements of success hit Thornton, when the story opens, his status was well established, making him undoubtably one of the most eligible men in Milton.
Pressure to begin considering a wife, had to be well-known to Thornton. He would have had opportunity to watch other men of his class & profession go through this very process. True to his nature, he would have carefully considered all the information available to him and firmly decided how he would conduct himself when the time came. Looking at the text again, “he’d gone and done the very thing he had so often agreed with himself in thinking would be the most foolish thing in the world,” This line of thought always represented to me the conviction that he had made long before he even met Margaret. That if he chose to marry, he would never allow himself to be a lovesick fool. He was a man who prided himself on his self-control. Losing that control over the love of a woman was not something I believe he would have embraced. This action, (having never experienced a love for any woman himself) appeared to him to be nothing short of complete and utter folly. He would proceed with intelligence, logic and purpose.
Though I do believe that Thornton was beginning to feel the weight of his loneliness before Margaret came into his radar, he was not the type of man to just marry the prettiest belle in the county.
Still with that being stated, again, I know that my own impressions of this are not the only ones with merit. It possible that Thornton was well aware of his growing attachment to Margaret, to even the point of knowing that he was in love with her. That the desire to marry her was so clear in his mind that he had considered the possibility.
There are more “moments” in the book that fans of this line of thought feel support this idea. There are scenes in the movie as well that have shaped this idea. Looking solely at the movie this time. One scene that has been used to support this thought is the one where JT utters the line “I wish you’d like Miss Hale.”, to his mother. If you all remember, this scene happens quite early in the storyline. The reasoning presented feel that the words spoken, the body language before and after speak strongly of JT’s well established attachment to Margaret. There is a corresponding book scene, but I want to give fan of this opinion the opportunity to present their case for consideration. As with all of our discussions here on WoM, all opinions are welcome. I would truly love to here what all of you think. There is no requirement that to give your own opinion on the topic that your first must have read the book first.
So let’s discuss what impression we all got on this topic, whether from the movie, the book or both. Share what you think and if you can.. explain what it is that makes you feel that way.
When did Thornton “know” that he was in love with the beautiful southern girl who challenged him at every turn and felt he was a rough uncultured northern tradesman? When did he know he was hopelessly lost? When did marriage enter his mind and cause him to think thoughts he had not thought before? I look forward to hearing all your thoughts.
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loribear
I love to show off talented artistic work when I find it. These two I found posted on Facebook a couple of days ago and I thought they were just wonderful. They were published by Marcia Bock Belloube, the but work is done by her friend. You can find more of her work at the link below.
The website is in Portuguese. There is a possibility that there are more drawings of the characters from N&S but I haven’t been able to find them. If any of you do.. let me know! Enjoy! Please be sure to check out this site! The artist does wonderful work!
Click on the icon to the left!!
loribear
I have been watching with great interest, a campaign to bring North & South to the Masterpiece theater line up. For those of you outside of the states, Masterpiece Theater is an association dedicated to bringing classic movies, series and programs to viewers across this country. Most commonly, this programming is partnered with the Public Broadcasting Service (PBS), a network that is primarily funded by the public, through fund-raisers, donations and monthly contributions.
Masterpiece Theater, which is now commonly referred to as just “Masterpiece”, is also funded by individuals and trusts. Not only do they broadcast quality programming, they have produced their own projects as well as partnering with production companies around the world. One of their most recent partnered projects was season 3 of Downton Abbey.
In a round about way, they played a part in bringing North & South to my attention. They produced my favorite adaptation of Jane Eyre which aired in the fall of 2006. You can read about how that lead me to North & South on the About Me page.
Though I am unaware of exactly when this campaign began, much of the efforts have been diligently tended to by Mary Denbeck, fondly known to many of us as Mary3. Mary has spent months writing letters/emails to various people in both the Masterpiece and PBS organizations. Research was done to attempt to know where to begin. Many of those beginning letters/emails were inquiries into ways to contact Paula Kerger, President & CEO of PBS and Rebecca Eaton, Executive Producer of Masterpiece. I am unclear at this point, if contact was achieved with either of these two executives. Yet some very interesting information has been received.
One particular email revealed the most definitive information about this that I have ever heard before. I always wondered why Masterpiece never aired North & South. In the nearly ten years since North & South was released, I never could understand why they never obtained the rights to show it. Especially with its steady increase of popularity here in the states. Not to mention their multiple showings of Cranford and Wives and Daughters, two other adaptations of Gaskell’s work. As I stated, one email between Mary and a Masterpiece representative, Lisa Lokshin, gave fairly clear answer to this question.
________________________________________
We reviewed North & South for possible Masterpiece scheduling nearly 10 years ago. At the time, there was no room in the schedule and it was instead licensed to BBC America.
Because of its popularity in the US, we’ve routinely encouraged the BBC to release the series in syndication. Until that happens, it is available on home video from sources such as Amazon.com . Thanks again for getting in touch!
________________________________________
There were different responses to this email. One response was a strong note to the comment, “Until that happens”, thinking that all that was needed to be done was to barrage PBS with emails requesting that North & South be added to the current or upcoming schedule. I have limited knowledge and understanding when it comes to broadcasting rights and/or syndication, yet it appeared to me that BBCA still owned the rights to N&S, even nearly 10 years later. Which means that Masterpiece has no power to seek the rights to air it. Then secondly, it appeared to me that Masterpiece has been imploring the BBC to release N&S into syndication, which I assume would give them the opportunity to add it to their schedule.
Here is another thought, if the BBCA owned rights to air the program nearly 10 yrs ago here in the states, did they do so? I vaguely remember hearing one two fans stating that they had caught it on the BBCA many years ago, yet that memory is so vague, I am not confident that this is fact. Did any of you happen to catch it? If so, when did they air it?
What do all of you think about this? Would you like to see Masterpiece add N&S to it’s schedule? Do you think that Masterpiece is the better media to share this amazing adaptation? Do you think it would reach more of the public? Or should we just all consider writing emails to the BBCA and ask that they add it to their schedule in the near future? Any thoughts or ideas on this?
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loribear
This post should have been posted a week ago. I am sorry it has taken so long for me to connect with you. To have SOME kind of activity here on WoM. Did you all wonder if I had fallen of the face of the planet? I don’t blame you if you did.
Life has been hectic in the last two weeks. Helping my children wind down the last days of this school year. One child in particular. My middle child, second son, is graduating from High School. He is relieved to be completely done with classes but the actual graduation ceremony is still pending.
As a proud mother should always boast, the graduation announcement was designed and created by my oldest child, Kynley Michal Designs. The senior pictures were taken by my oldest son, Kyle of Mr. Switch Photography!
A dear friend of our family… a young women as close to us as a daughter & sister has come to stay with us for the summer. A fellow fan of N&S and other period work.. she is always a pleasure and a treat for us to have around. Still, this event has added activity to our daily lives as well.
Then, to top that, during a weekend trip to Denver for a nephew’s graduation, I started showing signs of flu taking over my body. A flu that one of my children had decided to give to me as a gift the week before. This is not your average sniffle type thing, I’ve had to battle a fever, a persistent headache, body aches, congestion… the symptoms could go on! I know I just need to let it run its course but still it has bothered me that WoM has gone this long without a topic.
I am currently working on a total of four promising topics and I hope to have one complete and posted in the next day or so. I thank you all for your patience and sincerely hope that you are all healthy!
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loribear
As a natural progression from a discussion we had a week or so ago, I wrote this post. It was nearly ready, only in need of a few touches, when I stumbled across a piece of news that demanded my attention.
The question at the heart of this discussion flows naturally from the topic of the previous week. How can we look at Margaret without giving equal time to our hero, Thornton. Did he possess friends? What kind of friend was he? How did he relate to people? I believe these questions are natural when you consider the major “theme” to the story, bridging the gap between people.
As a quick clarification, it is not my intention to examine whether Thornton was a perfect friend, nor in like manner, if his friends were perfect. Mainly because I don’t believe such a thing exists. It is also not my intention to for this discussion to be a “love fest”. I do not believe that the characters in the book are perfect nor designed with an unrealistic fairytale flare. They are real and therefore are guilty of actions and qualities that are not always admirable. In truth, I believe that Gaskell understood that a character void of weaknesses is a weak character. A star shines brighter in the dark. (can you feel yet another topic coming on?)
As a quick clarification, it is not my intention to examine whether Thornton was a perfect friend, nor in like manner, if his friends were perfect. Mainly because I don’t believe such a thing exists. It is also not my intention to for this discussion to be a “love fest”. I do not believe that the characters in the book are perfect nor designed with an unrealistic fairytale flare. They are real and therefore are guilty of actions and qualities that are not always admirable. In truth, I believe that Gaskell understood that a character void of weaknesses is a weak character. A star shines brighter in the dark. (can you feel yet another topic coming on?)
Looking more deeply at Thornton, we know very little about any “friends” that he possessed before the story opens. What we do know, is that any friends that may have been present years before, most deserted them in the aftermath of George’s shame. We know that John made positive impressions on people around him. Gaskell does tell us that he was not completely void of people who were kind to them. One in particular is the crabby old creditor that took John on as a partner. (Ch11 First Impressions)
No matter how I wish that Thornton had friends, I get the distinct impression that Thornton possessed “acquaintance friends” and/or business associates but very little personal friends. There are two major reasons that I see this in his character. First being the fact that he is an introvert. Quiet, on the whole and not one to open up to just anyone. Next, is the factor of his devotion to his work. His work was his whole life, he poured himself into it and because of this had little time for anything else.
When Mr. Hale enters the scene, it is at a point in Thornton’s life where he’s feeling the need for more than just his family and the mill. He has achieved his goal, becoming successful in his profession and raised his family out of poverty and ruin. Though Gaskell does not spell this out in exact descriptions, she still communicates that Thornton has become restless. He has begun to look at his life with a new perspective. It almost seems that Richard Hale is dropped into his lap. A ‘learned’/educated man who has moved north to pursue a new life and living as a tutor. Here is a man who not only fits his needs, but Mr. Bell, his landlord, places him in a position to be of use to this man. How could it get more perfect than that?
It is through this endeavor that Thornton finds several things that his life has been lacking. Male companionship and friendship, a deeper education and then of course… love. Looking at the friendship first, we see evidence in the book that this friendship was very mutual. Interestingly enough, the women central in these mens lives, struggle with this new connection. Maria & Margaret both struggle, though Margaret tries very hard to be encouraging. “…but Mr. Thornton comes here as your friend—as one who has appreciated you’— [...] ‘So we will give him a welcome, …” Ch9 ‘Dressing for Tea’ More can be found in the previous chapter, Ch8 ‘Home Sickness’.
Hannah, for her part, is also discomfited by this new connection. In the early chapters of the book, this element is made clear when she expresses her thoughts on John’s lessons in several places. The connection between these two men is obvious and quite heartwarming.
We also see the depths of this friendship presented in later chapters when Maria has passed. The friendship is described through Margaret’s eyes. Though there is a hint of jealousy in Margaret’s thoughts, you still get the strong impression of just how deep this friendship had become. In Ch35 ‘Expiation’ “Mr. Thornton, instead of being shocked, seemed to have passed through that very stage of thought himself, and could suggest where the exact ray of light was to be found, which should make the dark places plain. … They never spoke of such things again, as it happened; but this one conversation made them peculiar people to each other; knit them together…’
Now, in looking at this friendship, was it perfect? Was Thornton always the faithful friend to Richard? Obviously not. After Margaret painful refusal, Thornton finds it difficult to attend his ‘lessons’ and this leaves Richard lonely for his company. Still, the loyalty and affection between the two men continues. During a low time in Thornton’s life, Richard misses him but choses to believe the best of him. Worries for his health and well-being. This is what friendship is about. When one is struggling, the other picks up the slack. When Richard is at his lowest, Thornton is there giving him such comfort that only he could give. Once again… when one is weak the other is strong.
The next friend that I would like to look at is Higgins. This is my second favorite element of this storyline. A friendship that is found between two men who were destined to be always at odds. Margaret of course plays a heavy role in bringing this friendship into being, yet I still love and applaud these two men. Men who both chose to open their eyes and see the merits of the other, in a society and situation that did not cultivate that. This friendship, though different than the friendship with Richard, it still proves to be a strong one. Part of my love for this relationship is how it is portrayed by Coyle & Armitage in the adaptation. Yet of course we get an even better picture of this friendship in the book. One of my favorite things is when Gaskell tells us that Thornton walked regularly to Higgins home and spent time speaking with him. I always loved how Higgins, understood the ‘introverted’ nature of Thornton and found himself compelled to look after him. The book describes how Thornton sought Higgins’ thoughts and wisdom on business matters as well as others. Thornton, was willing to acknowledge the intelligence of a worker at a time when they were viewed as ignorant. (Evidence of the growth experienced by Thornton in the story) It’s a touching relationship that I feel strongly would be an asset to both of them for years to come!
Lastly, this brings us to Margaret. This friendship of course is stinted from the get go, yet even in those early confrontations, there was evidence of a developing friendship. A learning on both sides. This is one of the elements of the story that I feel is so often is misinterpreted. SO MUCH focus is placed on the factor of Margaret being independent minded and speaking forcefully. Modern readers take that to be a sign that Gaskell was making a statement to her readers about the value of women’s intelligence and independence. Though there might be an element of this found in the story, personally, I don’t think its the main message that these early chapters are communicating. There is an equal amount of immaturity found in these chapters as there was maturity. An equal amount of negative as well as positive. Gaskell reveals flaws in both Margaret and Thornton’s opinions. (yet again that is a topic for another day)
This brings me to my point concerning Thornton. What modern readers fail to understand is Margaret’s forcefulness was very unbecoming for a lady in such a situation. Thornton would have had justifiable grounds to demand Richard control his daughter and to walk out of their home. This is where some of the first signs of Thornton’s character is revealed. He patiently (though annoyed at times) not only endures her ridicule but encourages it by speaking to her in return. Again, though at times he was annoyed, he still spoke to her with a calm and leveled voice. Thornton speaks to her as an equal. He does not belittle nor brush off her strong opinions as being that of a mere woman. He speaks with her honestly and in a manner that displays his belief that she is capable of understanding. Would Henry have done this? Don’t get me wrong, Thornton is not a saint in these discussions but he retains more control than Margaret and this is something when you consider the standard of conduct for ladies and men of this time period, in such a situation. One could ask.. how did Margaret instinctively know that he would be such a man?
In our previous discussion, a question was raised about the element of whether Thornton could be seen as a faithful friend, considering his choice to believe the worst of Margaret when he sees her at the train station with Fred. There are several elements to this that must be taken into consideration before judgement could be handed out. First and foremost we all must, once again, remember that these are very different times. Today, such actions of Margaret would not be seen as so strange or risky. Yet in Victorian times, to be seen so late in the evening (after dark in the adaptation, only dust in the book) so far away from her home with a man who is not known to be her relation or a trusted family friend, gave testimony to her character. It’s not that this was a hidden rule or even an element of forced propriety on women of the day. It was an accepted element, by both men and women.
Several years ago, I read a book of etiquette written in Victorian times for women of that day. One of the things that really stuck out to me was the code of conduct that women should possess while in the company of men. Example, the book laid out a scenario of a young lady, in the light of day, walking along a city street. If she were to come into contact with a gentleman, not of her nor her families acquaintance , how should she respond? The answer in this book was that she could ‘nod’ in an acknowledged greeting but she was not to converse with him nor accept any form of physical contact (meaning a handshake). The writer went on to say that no honorable gentleman would ever seek such conversation or personal contact without a proper introduction. (introductions would be done by a relative or trusted friend… showing that the man was honorable and trustworthy)
You can then see how clear-cut the lines were drawn in such matters. For a lady to be out at such a risky time of the evening, in the company of a man who was not recognized to be a relative or trusted family acquaintance, was an open declaration on her part of the status of her virtue. Let’s be frank here, this was the action of a woman seeking the company of unknown men as a form of occupation. On the milder side, Margaret was making a public declaration that she had an intimate relationship with him, alluding to intimacy of the physical nature. Thornton’s reaction is neither unnatural nor excessive.
Margaret herself understands this. She does not think of this element because of the stage of her grief and the factor that Fred was her brother. As her brother, he was an acceptable companion at such an hour. When the understanding of the gravity of her actions and what Thornton would naturally think dawns on her, she is mortified but ultimately she is neither surprised nor insulted. It is in these moments of understanding that she finally sees her love for him. Unlike her reaction to the failed proposal, she shows no signs of righteous indigence.
Also, if you look at Thornton’s reaction in detail, (best shown in the book) he is more tortured by the idea of her being in a relationship with another man. He is troubled by the idea of her being a ‘fallen’ woman but even there its the element of her belonging to another that is at the root of his despair. Though his sense of propriety plays a strong role, it is his broken heart that dominates his thoughts. It’s a battle between mind and heart. The mind wrestles with the public display that says one thing about her, while his heart believes the opposite. In the end, it is his heart that carries the most power. I challenge those who are struggling with the question to read again Ch38 ‘Promises Fulfilled’. There you will see the course of Thornton’s thoughts. His desire to work through what is known to him and not think the worst of her. Later in this very chapter, he nearly begs Hannah to be a friend to Margaret. ‘Mother, he is her lover, whoever he is; but she may need help and womanly counsel;—there may be difficulties or temptations which I don’t know. I fear there are. [...] go to her, and gain her confidence, [...] I know that something is wrong; some dread, must be a terrible torture to her.’ It shows that though his heart is broken and his faith in Margaret has been tested, in the end, he trusts his intuition about her.
He wisely embraces the idea that there may be more to it all than he is aware of. He longs to be there for her.. to protect her and in the end, he does that very thing. Even with his bitterly damaged heart, the protects her. If his heart had been less true, he could have let the inquest run it’s course, risking her reputation publicly. He risks himself for her, protecting her. Was Thornton a perfect friend? No of course not. Yet when he is tested, he rises and is the best kind of friend.
So what are your thoughts? What are your impressions of Thornton’s history with friends? Did he have them? What do you think of Thornton’s qualities as a friend? Do you think his weakness in struggling with the idea of Margaret’s reputation, proved him to be a less than desirable friend? What do you see there? What are your impressions of his relationship with Richard? Do you see Higgins as a friend or just a employee? I welcome thoughts! Even if you disagree with me, or wish to play the devils advocate! 
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loribear
North & South 1975 to be released in July 2013!
Click on the picture to the left for details on the release of this version of North & South to DVD. As you can see the DVD will be released by the BBC.
Below you will find pictures also released from the production. I have not had time to really read through all the information myself but I thought I would share it with you all as well.
Pre-order pricing.. is 17.00 UK. Those there can preorder it today. Not sure when it will be made available here in the states, hopefully soon.
Enjoy everyone.
Comments welcome as well and any additional information that you might come across!
Care to speculate on the characters pictured?
**Update: Movie is now available for pre-order on Amazon. Released date stated for July 2, 2013.
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loribear
West of Milton